[Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards

[Kaplan L. Aaron]

On Aug 8, 2008, at 6:11 PM, Derek C wrote:

> Hi Victor,
>
> I'm pretty used to getting around 30Mbps real data throughput with  
> a few
> antennas all jammed on the same pole and status does show 54Mbps
> association figures.
>
> Actually, and it depresses me but, I do see about a 4 X increase in  
> data
> throughput over distance (3 KM +) with Mikrotik boards and their  
> "nstream"
> protocol as opposed to "normal" 802.11a (thats 802.11a on openwrt or
> Mikrotik o/s) so I have to recommend Mikrotik for high[er] speed
> point-to-point links but that is of course well off the topic of  
> OLSR and
> openwrt which is what I'm obviously interested in here.

Derek, I am not sure if you knew that you can run OLSRd over LAN links.
Meaning: make a high speed microtik bridge (p2p or p2mp) and connect  
those to some node which speaks OLSR anyway via LAN cable. And voila!  
you still extended your mesh (since the microtik was a bridge) over a  
long distance and at high speed.
So in that sense - mikrotik is fine. Of course I would prefer it if  
it would be running OLSRd by default already :))

Otherwise my experience fits with yours - it is possible to cramp in  
a couple of directional 2.4GHz antennas in a single place and live  
with just a little bit of interference (less than it sounded like in  
Victor's mail).
Be sure to use horizontal and vertical polarisation magic in addition.


>
> I was thinking about two antennas and two radio cards - actually  
> what I
> really want is one omni and one directional antenna.  But I don't  
> think I
> can really use separate frequencies with adhoc networking so I  
> wonder how
of course you can.
> bad things would be with both radio cards on the same frequency?   
> It does
> seem like a waste of data and equipment though doesn't it?
yes a bit. If you have 2 cards - my suggestion would be to use them  
for 2 different frequencies and different directions.


my 2 cents of experience, :)
a.


>
> Derek
>
>
>
> On Fri, August 8, 2008 4:46 pm, Victor wrote:
>> Hi Derek,
>>
>>
>> Yeh that is pretty strange. I guess the antenna types would make  
>> quiet an
>>  impact since I was only uni omni antennas. But just to make sure  
>> we're
>> on the same page, you have confirmed that you can achieve a full  
>> 54Mbps on
>> each channel?
>>
>> In regards to using multiple directional antennas rather than a  
>> single
>> omni...interesting idea. Not sure what would happen. I don't know  
>> much
>> about the electrical side of antennas but there may be issues with  
>> driving
>>  multiple antennas from the same card. I guess the thing to do  
>> would be
>> to try it.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Derek C [mailto:(spam-protected)]
>> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 1:32 AM
>> To: Victor
>> Cc: 'Derek C'; (spam-protected)
>> Subject: RE: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>
>>
>> Hi Victor,
>>
>>
>> Funny actually - I have quite a few antennas which are very close  
>> to each
>>  other (generally a few planar or sectors and perhaps an omni on  
>> top) -
>> as close as I can get them when room gets tight and I haven't  
>> noticed any
>> problems with throughput due to proximity.  But then again thats  
>> not then
>>  same thing perhaps as two omnis "looking" at each other directly.
>>
>> I wonder if multiple (directional) on the same frequency could  
>> have an
>> advantage over single radio omnis in terms of distance even if  
>> interference
>> is being introduced on the single channel?  My big problem with  
>> omnis is
>> very distance (even on 2.4 where once I managed to get around 3 KM  
>> between
>> two 10dBm omnis with 60mWatt Merakis but it was woeful and a very
>> unacceptable throughput but I'd say there would be a severe distance
>> limitation with 5Ghz & omnis).
>>
>> Derek
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, August 8, 2008 4:22 pm, Victor wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Derek,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeh it does. There are some commercial companies that have released
>>> products that are self contained and in the same frequency band  
>>> but I'm
>>> not sure how they did it.
>>>
>>> In my setup was completely different. I was using Linksys routers  
>>> with
>>> a modified version of Freifunk/Openwrt so it was just a matter of  
>>> using
>>> Ethernet cable to separate the two routers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Using a PC, I would just suggest using USB wireless devices and  
>>> have a
>>> long USB cable. But the problem of cards in the same frequency  
>>> band is
>>> well known and researched.
>>>
>>> Victor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Derek C [mailto:(spam-protected)]
>>> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:57 PM
>>> To: Victor
>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Victor,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thats very interesting - it does make it awkard to build simple mesh
>>> nodes too as they can't be self-contained.
>>>
>>> Did you only use multiple antennas to seperate back-haul and  
>>> customer
>>> connections or did you use multiple cards to improve back-haul
>> performance?
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, August 8, 2008 11:21 am, Victor wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Derek,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just note that when using multiple radio cards you will still need
>>>> physical separation (antenna) separation between the radio cards
>>>> otherwise they will still be interfering with each other no matter
>>>> what channel you set them to. Mixing a and g band radios is okay  
>>>> and
>>>> you wont need the physical separation because the frequencies  
>>>> are far
>>>> enough apart. When I was working on this for an honours thesis I  
>>>> found
>>>> that I needed a minimum of 1 meter separation between the antennas
>>>> otherwise you get worse performance than just a single card.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Victor
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: (spam-protected)
>>>> [mailto:(spam-protected)] On Behalf Of
>>>> (spam-protected) Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008  
>>>> 8:00
>>>> PM
>>>> To: (spam-protected)
>>>> Subject: Olsr-users Digest, Vol 15, Issue 6
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send Olsr-users mailing list submissions to
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>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Yippie - routing now working (due to LinkQualityLevel
>>>> setting) (Derek C) 2. Using multiple radio cards (Derek C) 3. Re:
>>>> Using
>>>> multiple radio cards (Benjamin Henrion) 4. Re: Using multiple radio
>>>> cards (Derek C) 5. Re: Using multiple radio cards (aaron) 6. Re:  
>>>> Using
>>>> multiple radio cards (Derek C)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> --
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:12:02 +0100 (IST)
>>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Subject: [Olsr-users] Yippie - routing now working (due to
>>>> LinkQualityLevel	setting)
>>>> To: (spam-protected)
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> NOTE: SORRY - somehow I posted my message to the olsr dev mailing
>>>> list rather than the users one (and I'm not on the dev mailing list
>>>> either).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi again,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To let you know - quite blindly I started modifying olsrd.conf
>>>> settings to see if the routing would start working - and it paid  
>>>> off.
>>>>
>>>> I switched "UseHysteresis" to "no" and then I changed
>>>> "LinkQualityLevel"
>>>> from "0" (default) to "1" - after this, and a olsrd restart of  
>>>> course,
>>>>  routing came up!
>>>>
>>>> Actually I had avoided the LinkQualityLevel setting because I  
>>>> thought
>>>>  it really was "Hysteresis" OR "LinkQualityLevel" and Hysteresis
>>>> sounded like
>>> a
>>>> better system to opt for...
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Derek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Derek C
>>>> In Ireland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:40:15 +0100 (IST)
>>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Subject: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>>> To: (spam-protected)
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi again,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On multiple radio cards:  I'm new to AdHoc networking but I know  
>>>> that
>>>>  AdHoc networks don't hunt for APs over different frequencies like
>>>> the typical AP->STA type setup.
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping to have a dual [backbone] radio setup with one omni
>>>> antenna and one directional antenna per node to try to allow for  
>>>> links
>>>>  with increased range over omni -> omni arrangements.
>>>>
>>>> It does seem counter-productive to me to use the same frequency for
>>>> two individual radio cards - surely the interference would cause  
>>>> major
>>>>  slow-downs in communications?  (even more so than in a repeating
>>>> single radio card setup due to re-transmissions?).  Funny though
>>>> because I think I've read over people's setup with two radio  
>>>> cards set
>>>> to the same frequency.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any experience or opinions on dual radio setups?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Derek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Derek C
>>>> In Ireland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 18:57:43 +0200
>>>> From: "Benjamin Henrion" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>>> To: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Derek C <(spam-protected)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On multiple radio cards:  I'm new to AdHoc networking but I know
>>>>> that AdHoc networks don't hunt for APs over different frequencies
>>>>> like the typical AP->STA type setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was hoping to have a dual [backbone] radio setup with one omni
>>>>> antenna and one directional antenna per node to try to allow for
>>>>> links with increased range over omni -> omni arrangements.
>>>>>
>>>>> It does seem counter-productive to me to use the same frequency  
>>>>> for
>>>>>  two individual radio cards - surely the interference would cause
>>>>> major slow-downs in communications?  (even more so than in a
>>>>> repeating single radio card setup due to re-transmissions?).   
>>>>> Funny
>>>>> though because I think I've read over people's setup with two  
>>>>> radio
>>>>> cards set to the same frequency.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have any experience or opinions on dual radio setups?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I should publish soon my findings about multiple radio.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Basically the more seperation in frequencies the better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you want to use 2 different channels in the 2.4 band, try to use
>>>> ch1 and ch13 or example, or at least non-overlapping channels (ex:
>>> 1-6-11).
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are using omnis, try also to have Hpol and Vpol for better
>>>> seperation.
>>>>
>>>> In the 5gh band, use 5.2 and 5.8 in order to maximise the  
>>>> seperation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Benjamin Henrion <bhenrion at ffii.org>
>>>> FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-4148403
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 18:55:45 +0100 (IST)
>>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>>> To: "Benjamin Henrion" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to be using 802.11a 5Ghz (one planer & one omni).  I  
>>>> have a
>>>>  separate 2.4 Ghz card & omni for bandwidth supply to customer
>>>> notebooks
>>> (so
>>>
>>>
>>>> three cards total per node).
>>>>
>>>> The problem with any separate frequencies at all is that, as far  
>>>> as I
>>>>  can see, it hobbles adhoc mesh networking altogether in that one
>>>> node won't see any neighbors that are not on its assigned  
>>>> frequency.
>>>>
>>>> How did you approach this with multiple radio cards and  
>>>> frequencies?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> thanks for any information
>>>>
>>>> Derek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, August 7, 2008 5:57 pm, Benjamin Henrion wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Derek C <(spam-protected)> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On multiple radio cards:  I'm new to AdHoc networking but I know
>>>>>> that AdHoc networks don't hunt for APs over different frequencies
>>>>>> like the typical AP->STA type setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was hoping to have a dual [backbone] radio setup with one omni
>>>>>> antenna and one directional antenna per node to try to allow for
>>>>>> links with increased range over omni -> omni arrangements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does seem counter-productive to me to use the same frequency
>>>>>> for two individual radio cards - surely the interference would
>>>>>> cause major slow-downs in communications?  (even more so than  
>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>  repeating single radio card setup due to re-transmissions?).
>>>>>> Funny
>>>>>> though because I think I've read over people's setup with two
>>>>>> radio cards set to the same frequency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone have any experience or opinions on dual radio setups?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I should publish soon my findings about multiple radio.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically the more seperation in frequencies the better.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to use 2 different channels in the 2.4 band, try to  
>>>>> use
>>>>>  ch1 and ch13 or example, or at least non-overlapping channels  
>>>>> (ex:
>>>>>
>>>> 1-6-11).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are using omnis, try also to have Hpol and Vpol for better
>>>>> seperation.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the 5gh band, use 5.2 and 5.8 in order to maximise the
>>>>> seperation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Benjamin Henrion <bhenrion at ffii.org>
>>>>> FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-4148403
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Derek C
>>>> In Ireland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:36:24 +0200
>>>> From: aaron <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>>> To: Derek C <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>>> Message-ID: <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> How did you approach this with multiple radio cards and
>>>>> frequencies?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would just use multiple cards / radios in that case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> a.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 6
>>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:42:16 +0100 (IST)
>>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>>> To: "aaron" <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi again Aaaron,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On single radio [backbone] mesh systems - part of the advantage to
>>>> the adhoc / olsrd network is that the nodes "see" all nearby
>>>> neighboring nodes so can route via them as necessary.  This must be
>>>> necessary (important
>>>> anyway) for routing via new (better signal / less hops) nodes as  
>>>> they
>>>> appear and for resilient links.
>>>>
>>>> If two radio cards are used and two channels are used then nodes
>>>> would have to be programmed with the channel to use (per radio  
>>>> card,
>>>> etc) as
>>> they
>>>> are going out for installation but without any automated channel
>>>> selection it would be just like having separate olsrd networks
>>>> wouldn't it?
>>>>
>>>> Before dabbling olsr I was trying out my own perl based scripts to
>>>> find neighbors - I was using AP and STA cards (not adhoc  
>>>> networking)
>>>> but this was flawed because I couldn't work out safe routes to  
>>>> gateway
>>>> nodes (only
>>>> routes to nearby strong signal neighbors) but in a way it was good
>>>> because I always had unique frequencies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are using separate radio cards and separate channels  
>>>> would you
>>>>  just manually structure your "hybrid" network or is there any  
>>>> other
>>>> intelligent options?
>>>>
>>>> thanks for any information
>>>>
>>>> Derek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, August 7, 2008 7:36 pm, aaron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> How did you approach this with multiple radio cards and
>>>>>> frequencies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would just use multiple cards / radios in that case.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> a.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Derek C
>>>> In Ireland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Olsr-users mailing list
>>>> (spam-protected)
>>>> http://lists.olsr.org/mailman/listinfo/olsr-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> End of Olsr-users Digest, Vol 15, Issue 6
>>>> *****************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Olsr-users mailing list
>>>> (spam-protected)
>>>> http://lists.olsr.org/mailman/listinfo/olsr-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Derek C
>>> In Ireland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Derek C
>> In Ireland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> --
> Derek C
> In Ireland
>
>
>
> -- 
> Olsr-users mailing list
> (spam-protected)
> http://lists.olsr.org/mailman/listinfo/olsr-users

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