[Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards

Fri Aug 8 18:11:41 CEST 2008

Hi Victor,

I'm pretty used to getting around 30Mbps real data throughput with a few
antennas all jammed on the same pole and status does show 54Mbps
association figures.

Actually, and it depresses me but, I do see about a 4 X increase in data
throughput over distance (3 KM +) with Mikrotik boards and their "nstream"
protocol as opposed to "normal" 802.11a (thats 802.11a on openwrt or
Mikrotik o/s) so I have to recommend Mikrotik for high[er] speed
point-to-point links but that is of course well off the topic of OLSR and
openwrt which is what I'm obviously interested in here.

I was thinking about two antennas and two radio cards - actually what I
really want is one omni and one directional antenna.  But I don't think I
can really use separate frequencies with adhoc networking so I wonder how
bad things would be with both radio cards on the same frequency?  It does
seem like a waste of data and equipment though doesn't it?

Derek

On Fri, August 8, 2008 4:46 pm, Victor wrote:
> Hi Derek,
>
>
> Yeh that is pretty strange. I guess the antenna types would make quiet an
>  impact since I was only uni omni antennas. But just to make sure we're
> on the same page, you have confirmed that you can achieve a full 54Mbps on
> each channel?
>
> In regards to using multiple directional antennas rather than a single
> omni...interesting idea. Not sure what would happen. I don't know much
> about the electrical side of antennas but there may be issues with driving
>  multiple antennas from the same card. I guess the thing to do would be
> to try it.
>
> Victor
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derek C [mailto:(spam-protected)]
> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 1:32 AM
> To: Victor
> Cc: 'Derek C'; (spam-protected)
> Subject: RE: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>
>
> Hi Victor,
>
>
> Funny actually - I have quite a few antennas which are very close to each
>  other (generally a few planar or sectors and perhaps an omni on top) -
> as close as I can get them when room gets tight and I haven't noticed any
> problems with throughput due to proximity.  But then again thats not then
>  same thing perhaps as two omnis "looking" at each other directly.
>
> I wonder if multiple (directional) on the same frequency could have an
> advantage over single radio omnis in terms of distance even if interference
> is being introduced on the single channel?  My big problem with omnis is
> very distance (even on 2.4 where once I managed to get around 3 KM between
> two 10dBm omnis with 60mWatt Merakis but it was woeful and a very
> unacceptable throughput but I'd say there would be a severe distance
> limitation with 5Ghz & omnis).
>
> Derek
>
>
>
> On Fri, August 8, 2008 4:22 pm, Victor wrote:
>
>> Hi Derek,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeh it does. There are some commercial companies that have released
>> products that are self contained and in the same frequency band but I'm
>> not sure how they did it.
>>
>> In my setup was completely different. I was using Linksys routers with
>> a modified version of Freifunk/Openwrt so it was just a matter of using
>> Ethernet cable to separate the two routers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Using a PC, I would just suggest using USB wireless devices and have a
>> long USB cable. But the problem of cards in the same frequency band is
>> well known and researched.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Derek C [mailto:(spam-protected)]
>> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:57 PM
>> To: Victor
>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Victor,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thats very interesting - it does make it awkard to build simple mesh
>> nodes too as they can't be self-contained.
>>
>> Did you only use multiple antennas to seperate back-haul and customer
>> connections or did you use multiple cards to improve back-haul
> performance?
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Derek
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, August 8, 2008 11:21 am, Victor wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Derek,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just note that when using multiple radio cards you will still need
>>> physical separation (antenna) separation between the radio cards
>>> otherwise they will still be interfering with each other no matter
>>> what channel you set them to. Mixing a and g band radios is okay and
>>> you wont need the physical separation because the frequencies are far
>>> enough apart. When I was working on this for an honours thesis I found
>>> that I needed a minimum of 1 meter separation between the antennas
>>> otherwise you get worse performance than just a single card.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Victor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: (spam-protected)
>>> [mailto:(spam-protected)] On Behalf Of
>>> (spam-protected) Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 8:00
>>> PM
>>> To: (spam-protected)
>>> Subject: Olsr-users Digest, Vol 15, Issue 6
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send Olsr-users mailing list submissions to
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Yippie - routing now working (due to LinkQualityLevel
>>> setting) (Derek C) 2. Using multiple radio cards (Derek C) 3. Re:
>>> Using
>>> multiple radio cards (Benjamin Henrion) 4. Re: Using multiple radio
>>> cards (Derek C) 5. Re: Using multiple radio cards (aaron) 6. Re: Using
>>> multiple radio cards (Derek C)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:12:02 +0100 (IST)
>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Subject: [Olsr-users] Yippie - routing now working (due to
>>> LinkQualityLevel	setting)
>>> To: (spam-protected)
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NOTE: SORRY - somehow I posted my message to the olsr dev mailing
>>> list rather than the users one (and I'm not on the dev mailing list
>>> either).
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi again,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To let you know - quite blindly I started modifying olsrd.conf
>>> settings to see if the routing would start working - and it paid off.
>>>
>>> I switched "UseHysteresis" to "no" and then I changed
>>> "LinkQualityLevel"
>>> from "0" (default) to "1" - after this, and a olsrd restart of course,
>>>  routing came up!
>>>
>>> Actually I had avoided the LinkQualityLevel setting because I thought
>>>  it really was "Hysteresis" OR "LinkQualityLevel" and Hysteresis
>>> sounded like
>> a
>>> better system to opt for...
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Derek C
>>> In Ireland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:40:15 +0100 (IST)
>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Subject: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>> To: (spam-protected)
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi again,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On multiple radio cards:  I'm new to AdHoc networking but I know that
>>>  AdHoc networks don't hunt for APs over different frequencies like
>>> the typical AP->STA type setup.
>>>
>>> I was hoping to have a dual [backbone] radio setup with one omni
>>> antenna and one directional antenna per node to try to allow for links
>>>  with increased range over omni -> omni arrangements.
>>>
>>> It does seem counter-productive to me to use the same frequency for
>>> two individual radio cards - surely the interference would cause major
>>>  slow-downs in communications?  (even more so than in a repeating
>>> single radio card setup due to re-transmissions?).  Funny though
>>> because I think I've read over people's setup with two radio cards set
>>> to the same frequency.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any experience or opinions on dual radio setups?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Derek C
>>> In Ireland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 18:57:43 +0200
>>> From: "Benjamin Henrion" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>> To: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Derek C <(spam-protected)> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi again,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On multiple radio cards:  I'm new to AdHoc networking but I know
>>>> that AdHoc networks don't hunt for APs over different frequencies
>>>> like the typical AP->STA type setup.
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping to have a dual [backbone] radio setup with one omni
>>>> antenna and one directional antenna per node to try to allow for
>>>> links with increased range over omni -> omni arrangements.
>>>>
>>>> It does seem counter-productive to me to use the same frequency for
>>>>  two individual radio cards - surely the interference would cause
>>>> major slow-downs in communications?  (even more so than in a
>>>> repeating single radio card setup due to re-transmissions?).  Funny
>>>> though because I think I've read over people's setup with two radio
>>>> cards set to the same frequency.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any experience or opinions on dual radio setups?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I should publish soon my findings about multiple radio.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Basically the more seperation in frequencies the better.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want to use 2 different channels in the 2.4 band, try to use
>>> ch1 and ch13 or example, or at least non-overlapping channels (ex:
>> 1-6-11).
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you are using omnis, try also to have Hpol and Vpol for better
>>> seperation.
>>>
>>> In the 5gh band, use 5.2 and 5.8 in order to maximise the seperation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Benjamin Henrion <bhenrion at ffii.org>
>>> FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-4148403
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 18:55:45 +0100 (IST)
>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>> To: "Benjamin Henrion" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm going to be using 802.11a 5Ghz (one planer & one omni).  I have a
>>>  separate 2.4 Ghz card & omni for bandwidth supply to customer
>>> notebooks
>> (so
>>
>>
>>> three cards total per node).
>>>
>>> The problem with any separate frequencies at all is that, as far as I
>>>  can see, it hobbles adhoc mesh networking altogether in that one
>>> node won't see any neighbors that are not on its assigned frequency.
>>>
>>> How did you approach this with multiple radio cards and frequencies?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks for any information
>>>
>>> Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, August 7, 2008 5:57 pm, Benjamin Henrion wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Derek C <(spam-protected)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On multiple radio cards:  I'm new to AdHoc networking but I know
>>>>> that AdHoc networks don't hunt for APs over different frequencies
>>>>> like the typical AP->STA type setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was hoping to have a dual [backbone] radio setup with one omni
>>>>> antenna and one directional antenna per node to try to allow for
>>>>> links with increased range over omni -> omni arrangements.
>>>>>
>>>>> It does seem counter-productive to me to use the same frequency
>>>>> for two individual radio cards - surely the interference would
>>>>> cause major slow-downs in communications?  (even more so than in a
>>>>>  repeating single radio card setup due to re-transmissions?).
>>>>> Funny
>>>>> though because I think I've read over people's setup with two
>>>>> radio cards set to the same frequency.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have any experience or opinions on dual radio setups?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I should publish soon my findings about multiple radio.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Basically the more seperation in frequencies the better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you want to use 2 different channels in the 2.4 band, try to use
>>>>  ch1 and ch13 or example, or at least non-overlapping channels (ex:
>>>>
>>> 1-6-11).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are using omnis, try also to have Hpol and Vpol for better
>>>> seperation.
>>>>
>>>> In the 5gh band, use 5.2 and 5.8 in order to maximise the
>>>> seperation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Benjamin Henrion <bhenrion at ffii.org>
>>>> FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-4148403
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Derek C
>>> In Ireland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:36:24 +0200
>>> From: aaron <(spam-protected)>
>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>> To: Derek C <(spam-protected)>
>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>> Message-ID: <(spam-protected)>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> How did you approach this with multiple radio cards and
>>>> frequencies?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would just use multiple cards / radios in that case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> a.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:42:16 +0100 (IST)
>>> From: "Derek C" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] Using multiple radio cards
>>> To: "aaron" <(spam-protected)>
>>> Cc: (spam-protected)
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <(spam-protected)>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi again Aaaron,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On single radio [backbone] mesh systems - part of the advantage to
>>> the adhoc / olsrd network is that the nodes "see" all nearby
>>> neighboring nodes so can route via them as necessary.  This must be
>>> necessary (important
>>> anyway) for routing via new (better signal / less hops) nodes as they
>>> appear and for resilient links.
>>>
>>> If two radio cards are used and two channels are used then nodes
>>> would have to be programmed with the channel to use (per radio card,
>>> etc) as
>> they
>>> are going out for installation but without any automated channel
>>> selection it would be just like having separate olsrd networks
>>> wouldn't it?
>>>
>>> Before dabbling olsr I was trying out my own perl based scripts to
>>> find neighbors - I was using AP and STA cards (not adhoc networking)
>>> but this was flawed because I couldn't work out safe routes to gateway
>>> nodes (only
>>> routes to nearby strong signal neighbors) but in a way it was good
>>> because I always had unique frequencies.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you are using separate radio cards and separate channels would you
>>>  just manually structure your "hybrid" network or is there any other
>>> intelligent options?
>>>
>>> thanks for any information
>>>
>>> Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, August 7, 2008 7:36 pm, aaron wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>> How did you approach this with multiple radio cards and
>>>>> frequencies?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would just use multiple cards / radios in that case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> a.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Derek C
>>> In Ireland
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Olsr-users mailing list
>>> (spam-protected)
>>> http://lists.olsr.org/mailman/listinfo/olsr-users
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> End of Olsr-users Digest, Vol 15, Issue 6
>>> *****************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> http://lists.olsr.org/mailman/listinfo/olsr-users
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Derek C
>> In Ireland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Derek C
> In Ireland
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
--
Derek C
In Ireland